January 22nd, 2008

I was astonished to read the A List Apart article Beyond DOCTYPE: Web Standards, Forward Compatibility, and IE8 and even more astonished to read compliance with the message from Eric Meyer, Molly Holzschlag, and the WaSP organization.

How the mighty have fallen is so very cliché but, oh, how appropriate.

According to Aaron Gustafson, who wrote the ALA article, the plan is rather than depend on DOCTYPE to trigger quirks and standard mode for page rendering–a necessity first generated by Microsoft's IE5/Mac by the way–we all add a meta tag to our pages that locks the page into a specific browser rendering. For instance, the following would lock a page into IE8 rendering:

<meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=8" />

IE will then render the page within some form of IE8 compliant mode. Needless to say, as for the old wish for progressive enhancement where if we design our pages to working with released standards, ensuring that they'll be future proof, well, we must abandon this along the road:

As much as it pains me to lose this particular aspect of progressive enhancement, this behavior is honestly the best thing that could happen, especially when the site concerned is public-facing. After all, we shouldn’t make assumptions about how browsers will behave in the future. If a change in IE9 would break the layout of our site or the functionality of one of our scripts, that could be disastrous for our users, sending our team into a mad scramble to “fix” the website that was working fine before the new browser launched (which is pretty much the boat we’re in now). Version targeting gives our team the ability to decide when to offer support for a new browser and, more importantly, gives us the much-needed time to make any adjustments necessary to introduce support for that new browser version.

I would say that if a change in IE9 would break our standards-based pages, the problem lies with IE, not the pages. The whole point on standards is that by using them we ensure a consistency of access for our pages, now and in the future. When a browser states it supports CSS 2.1 or XHTML 1.1, we know what to expect. Obviously support for standards is not important or part of any plan for Microsoft. Indeed, it would seem that Microsoft has, by supporting (encouraging, funding) this concept, decided to maintain its own path from now into the future, smug in the assurance that it will always manage to lock people into using IE. Frankly, I'm not surprised at Microsoft, but I have to wonder at WaSP, ALA, et al.

This new meta tag is not a browser switch according to PPK, who writes:

A browser detect is a piece of JavaScript or server side code written to parse the user agent string of a browser and take action based on the results of that parsing—typically by denying users of the "wrong" browser access to a page.

The new versioning switch does something completely different. In IE, it starts up a certain mode, such as Quirks Mode, Strict Mode, or the upcoming IE8 mode. In all other browsers it does nothing, since these browsers are not programmed to recognise the meta tag.

Therefore, if a non-IE browser encounters the switch, nothing happens. The browser ignores the meta tag, reads the HTML, CSS, and JavaScript as always, and allows its own rendering engine to interpret it.

In other words, the versioning switch does not have any of the negative effects of a browser detect.

There's a second difference: the versioning switch is a contract. The IE team tells people what will happen if they insert the meta tag in their pages, and it's up to individual web developers to decide whether they want to use this contract or not.

Bully for Microsoft. I used to think commitment to standards was a contract. Evidently, my interpretation was incorrect. How gauche of me.

In comments at the IE blog, James Schwarzmeier wrote:

Unlike the majority of other posters here, I have to say that I agree with this approach. I currently wok on a team that maintains a suite 20 large web-based applications. If I had to guess, I would say there's serveral (if not 10s) of millions of lines of code. If the layout engine radically changed, it would literally take years to fully test everything and update everything to be compatible. It's not that we're lazy or "behind the times" — it's just that the sheer volume of code makes it impossible to simply turn on a dime.

What an absurd statement to make. What Schwarzmeier is saying is that each page in these 20 major applications is hand coded, not using standards, not using a template, and that individual changes need to be made, one page at a time. Frankly, any large site or application in this shape should seriously consider firing its existing team, and starting over.

The days when each web page is hand crafted are over. They've been over for years. I can't believe that there are any major web sites that don't use some form of templated system now. Templates and CSS.

In fact, I would say that most hand crafted pages now probably wouldn't work with IE8, or even IE7 or IE6. I find it likely they still have the silly little icon for requiring IE 4.x. They definitely wouldn't be adding in the meta tag. The creators probably won't even hear of these discussions.

The argument for this tag is actually the number one argument against this tag: those people with hand crafted pages are not going to be willing to hand edit each page to make it standards compliant–why on earth would they hand edit each of these pages to add this tag? As for being able to test a site against a version of a browser–this site looks good in IE7, but not IE8, or some such nonsense–when are we finally going to actually commit to standards? Not just as browser vendors, but as web page designers and developers? More importantly, as people who use browsers to surf the web?

I am not writing this because I work for Opera or Mozilla. I am not writing this because I'm unaware of the challenges facing web page designers. In fact, in my books I warn people about being aware of their audiences and the browsers that they use. It would be irresponsible for me not to cover these topics.

However, I no longer buy into the stories of millions of charities, schools, or libraries with old computers that can't run anything but Win95 and IE 5.x.

I no longer buy into the stories of web sites with millions of lines of code, each of which has to be tweaked any time a new standard or browser is released.

I no longer buy into a web where we continue having to add foolishness into our pages in order to satisfy a company who can't even be trusted to provide an upgrade path for IE 6 on older, but still popular, operating systems like Windows 2000.

Nothing will stop Microsoft from adding its little IE-specific tags here and there. If the company were truly concerned about breaking the web, though, such tags should be opt-in. In other words, Microsoft should render a page in standards mode if this stilly tag is not added to the page–not force all of us to redefine the web just because Microsoft has seemingly brainwashed the WaSP, ALA, et al.

I will not add this tag to my web pages–no, not even using some twisty tech method–and the company had better determine how it is going to render sites like this one, which serves up good, honest, standard XHTML 1.1.

Update

Over at Anne's the following comment from another member of WaSP:

Just to be clear Anne, the members of the Web Standards Project in general were not informed about this article and Microsoft's proposal/plans until it was announced on A List Apart. Any Web Standards Project members who consulted with Microsoft did so as individuals and not as representatives of WaSP.

I am sure that I am not the only WaSP member (and web designer/developer) who is unhappy with these proposals on first reading.

I think it's time for the WaSP to get its ducks in a row. I think it's also important that members of WaSP, and perhaps the ALA, also, to publicly declare their financial dealings with any of the impacted browser companies, including Microsoft.

Second Update

Jeremy Keith writes of meta-blackmail:

But—and this is a huge “but”—if you don’t include a X-UA-Compatible instruction, you are also condemning your site to be locked into the current version: IE7. This is a huge, huge mistake.

Let’s say you’re building a website right now that uses a CSS feature such as generated content. Any browsers that currently support generated content will correctly parse your CSS declarations. Future browsers that will support generated content should also parse those CSS declarations. This expected behaviour will not occur in Internet Explorer. IE8 will include support for generated content. But unless you explicitly declare that you want IE8 to behave as IE8, it will behave as IE7.

There's another option: continue as we are.

Last update

Who is this man and what has he done with the real Zeldman? I will say one thing: such prissy, looking down one's nose arrogance will not win adherents to this approach.

I feel like I've walked into an episode of the Twilight Zone.

Comments
1
Kevin - 1:21 pm January 22, 2008

Thank you for this. I won't claim to be privvy to the long history and debate over this issue, but as a young designer/dev who cares about standards, I was taken by surprise this morning along with lots of people who put a lot of trust in the authority of Eric, ALA, et al. You provide a really strong, level-headed criticism of this proposal, and I really hope that someone listens to it. The resistance all over the Standards Web today is not, as Eric might think, the same as his personal initial repugnance.

Most important point: this is IE's problem. Should not be our problem.

The whole point (as I understand it) of standards is that things are supposed to be the other way around. A single piece of software (the browser) supporting standards so that millions of little programs (web sites) needn't adhere to each specific piece of software that might someday be released.

2
Jeff Schiller - 1:30 pm January 22, 2008

fwiw, Microsoft has not yet said whether IE8 will support XHTML or not. Unless you know something…

3
Shelley - 1:36 pm January 22, 2008

Kevin, you're right, across the board. The whole point on standards was to avoid these types of situations.

Jeff, if IE8 does not support XHTML, than I think everything the company has said is a lie, and will continue to do what I've done with this site but at all my sites–serve up the pages as XHTML, eliminate IE as a problem, once and for all. And encourage others to do the same.

I'm also waiting on hearing about SVG and the canvas object.

Unless implementing these will also break old web sites…

phhft

4
Isofarro - 4:14 pm January 22, 2008

Hi Shelley, for the last few weeks I've been thinking about the statement you made about no longer compensating for limited or broken specification support in browsers after 1st Jan 2010.

This latest stunt from Microsoft has solidified my belief that you are right, and that we should no longer tolerate these charades from any browser vendor.

Thanks
Mike

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John Drinkwater - 4:50 pm January 22, 2008

I completely agree with everything you’ve said. I can’t believe WaSP (the smaller “consulting for MS” group) would have co-ordinated such a stupid cop-out to standards.
Not only are sites forced now to apply this to get “standards” mode in IE8, but it’s yet more cruft, every page on the Internet in the future will be required to use it just for IE support, that’s short-sighted…
I’m going to post a similar thing on my blog, because it’s important a fuss is made.

6
Bud Gibson - 4:54 pm January 22, 2008

I sort of agree with continue as we are. But, as I stated in email before this post had a URL, I'm unconvinced of MS's future relevance. It seems we have an explosion of mobile and other light weight devices that don't run IE and do run standards-compliant code. The more important thing will be creating standards-compliant sites that work across these devices.

Of course, I say all of this from the perspective of someone who does not design commercial web sites for a living. If you are in that profession, your livelihood depends on working well with Microsoft. Period.

7
Bill - 4:59 pm January 22, 2008

[delurk] ;)
Spot on, Shelley. This is simply disgusting. Mssrs. Meyer and Zeldman have disappointed me on this. Not that my approval is worth more than $.02.

Jeremy Keith had it - this "feature" would be acceptable if you could use it to freeze your work (for the "designer" who wanted to be lazy and create like it's 1999 and target specific browsers) and never worry about forward-compatibility. The default behavior should be the latest version.

I can understand the problem MS faces, but they've forced everyone to pay for it, rather than just themselves. Nice to have a bully pulpit to do it from.

8
Shelley - 7:38 pm January 22, 2008

Isofarro, I've already made the shift in this site — pure XHTML.

John, I think it is important to make a fuss now, especially with so many prominent people behind this 'new' way of doing the web.

Bud, yes, people who have to design sites for a living are particularly vulnerable. I hope, though, that the more stink made, the more we can convince some companies to at least consider being less supportive of IE.

Bill, good to see you delurk ;-) Yes, surprising about ALA and WaSP both, as well as Meyer. This is not the WaSP I knew from years ago.

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Asbjørn Ulsberg - 7:57 am January 23, 2008

You are right in everything you say, Shelley. I'm glad you speak on our behalf and that your mind isn't brainwashed by the standards hating demons in Redmond.

Okay, I perhaps exaggerate a bit, but W.T.F! If people want to tailor their crap to a given version of Internet Explorer and Microsoft wants to provide a way for them to do that without getting any of the improvements to come in later versions of the browser, then that's a problem between the ignorant web developer and Microsoft. It's not a problem between Microsoft and the rest of the world that happens to not be targeting a specific rendering engine, but coding and programming according to W3C and IETF's specifications instead.

12
Michael R. Bernstein - 8:41 am January 23, 2008

Great Ghu! I can think of no better way for Microsoft to 'embrace and extend' HTML in order to lock in their browser market share (even in the more benign form of latest-by-default).

This is the Overton Window with a vengeance. They proposed this stupid IE7-by-default behavior just so they could 'reluctantly' back off to a less offensive version and get buy-in from all the standardistas. But even with the latest-by-default behavior so many pages are going to get locked into a 'better-in-IE' (of whatever version and I bet they also include a sop to their own constituents by including a better-in-IE6 mode), this just constitutes another form of Microsoft tax on the entire industry.

And nearly everyone is falling for it.

13

Twilight Zone? More like Invasion of the Body Snatchers!!

{expletive ravings deleted here}

As soon as WaSP got into bed with Microsoft, the whole mission changed. Not for Standards, but for Microsoft.

What's next Smart Tags? remember them?

14
Robin Lewis - 10:23 am January 23, 2008

I work as a web developer for a relatively small field marketing firm in the UK. I can safely say that I will not be adding this tag to any of the pages I'm writing.

It's Microsoft's duty to provide a correct standards-compliant browser implementation, and the developer's duty to write correct standards-compliant code. Microsoft is currently failing in their duty. I am not failing in mine, and I will not willingly fail in mine, just to pander to the whims of a convicted monopolist who needs to have their head bashed against a wall a few times.

15
Arthur - 3:09 pm January 23, 2008

I was reading Hakon Lie's column at News.com and he says:

A third scenario could be to hard-code the Web address of Acid2 into IE 8. This way, the page is given special treatment to make it look like the browser is passing the test. It should be obvious that this breaks the spirit of the test and doesn't warrant a passing grade.

Pinch me: is that a joke? (I thought that was hilarious)

16
Pundit - 3:40 pm January 23, 2008

Maybe if you served your site as a page type that IE7 would render, I could respect your opinion.

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Shelley - 4:05 pm January 23, 2008

I think I can safely say that deriving solutions behind closed doors, and then pushing them out the door without public opinion is not something this group will be trying again.

I was thinking how ironic this whole thing was. I wrote an article for O'Reilly in 2000 called "The Tyranny of Standards" and was blasted a new one by the very people who are promoting this new extension. Huh.

pundit, it's the very fact that I'm using a standard MIME type that IE can't resolve–doesn't even try to resolve–that proves my point better than any words I can use. From what I'm hearing now, this situation won't be changing when IE8 releases.

19
Shelley - 4:07 pm January 23, 2008

Arthur, I was actually thinking that Microsoft passed the test, but had to use Silverlight in order to do so.

20
lib - 8:55 pm January 23, 2008

You quote "James Schwarzmeier" and his perceived inability to "turn on a dime". But did you read Chris Wilson's response to this? He said it was "Nice to see real-world experience agreeing".
"Real world" experience? Where the hell does he think *I* (and other developers) work, la-la land?? It's ALL real, mate!
Oh, and just out of curiosity, I tried to load this page with IE6 (yea, my organisation has me on W2k, still), and spent an amusing 30 seconds watching it moan and groan and finally burn and sink into the swamp. For the first time ever, I sent the crash report off to Microsoft.
These things amuse me *shrugs*

21
Molly E. Holzschlag - 11:32 pm January 23, 2008

For the record, this is not something I personally endorsed either. The only public commentary I have about it is simply that it was the better choice out of some bad choices. I have grave concerns about all of this for many reasons, some of which you cited here. But please be careful that you do not cite me for things I did not do or say.

Primarily, my concern is the continuation of closed communication from MS. I fight against this every day, and as you might know, took it all the way up to Bill Gates himself, for the lot of good it did :(

22
Shelley - 8:13 am January 24, 2008

Lib, yes, IE doesn't approve of XHTML. Then there's XHTML AND SVG…

Molly:

"The only public commentary I have about it is simply that it was the better choice out of some bad choices."

Frankly, that sounds like compliance to me.

"Primarily, my concern is the continuation of closed communication from MS."

Then perhaps you can get Chris Wilson to answer the question: will IE8 support XHTML?

23
Susan Kitchens - 10:19 am January 24, 2008

Just lie back and think of Microsoft.

24
Michael R. Bernstein - 12:07 pm January 24, 2008

Molly, I disagree that it was the better choice out of some bad choices. Unless you mean better for Microsoft (and, I suppose, some of their customers, but certainly not all of them).

I agree with Shelley. Silence equals consent.

Also (and I almost can't believe I'm saying this) maybe you could talk to Scoble and ask him how he managed to occasionally hold Microsoft's feet to the fire publicly without getting fired. If there was ever a time to do it, it's now.

25
Aaron Gustafson - 2:11 pm January 24, 2008

I just wanted to correct an error in your post:

the plan is rather than depend on DOCTYPE to trigger quirks and standard mode for page rendering–a necessity generated by Microsoft’s IE6 by the way…

The DOCTYPE switch had nothing to do with how IE6 did anything. In fact, it predated IE6. It was first implemented in IE5/Mac and was added to IE on Windows in IE6.

26
Shelley - 2:29 pm January 24, 2008

Thanks for the correction, Aaron.

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[…] began to write a response to Shelley Powers' formidable "Bobbing Heads and the IE8 Meta Tag." In this article, I'm cited as being in compliance with the Microsoft choice. At first […]

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Isofarro - 9:50 am January 25, 2008

Michael R. Bernstein: "Silence equals consent."

No. That's no way to encourage or protect community participation. Silence means nothing more than silence. By equating it to something else is a form of prejudgement. Let Molly's words lay out her position, don't attempt to fill in the gaps.

29
Jeff - 10:37 am January 25, 2008

What I think people like James Schwarzmeier are forgetting is "So what? Isn't it great you're suite of sites has millions of lines of code. Look at all that outsource work you've just created (a whole cottage industry) for the freelance development communities. People could have jobs.. feed their families and help you whittle away at your millions of lines of code…" The community would love you, the economy would love you, hell the news might even have a few kind words to say about you on nationwide tv!,

So hell yeah, if you're gonna break the rendering engine then break it to where no one can fix it so you have to actually write a new one, (correctly this time) that actually performs like it should. Millions of lines of code be damned!

30
DavidONE - 12:15 pm January 25, 2008

"Zeldman … prissy, looking down one’s nose arrogance will not win adherents to this approach."

I'm surprised more people haven't called him (and Meyer) on this. Faced with a wall of dissent, they've resorted to ad hominem, emotive language, a bunch of confused, fallacious arguments and a display of desperation in trying to defend the indefensible.

I think a couple of egos never imagined the (almost) entire web dev community would disagree with them, and now they're unable to back out of the confrontation.

A rather important question: what is the official position of WaSP in all of this. Or are they officially sitting on the fence with "some of us agree, others don't". Aren't WaSP supposed to be representing the web standards community - *not* a browser company with massive market dominance?! A rather sad moment.

I'm with you, Shelley - this M$ tag will not be added to any of my sites. I'll continue with conditional comments so it's just same ol', same ol' when IE8 arrives … and continue evangelising for everyone to use any browser other than IE.

31
Molly E. Holzschlag - 2:11 pm January 25, 2008

Shelley, a few thoughts . . .

I know that the years I served at WaSP set a certain precedence, but please remember I left the project when I knew I was going "under" with such an explicit NDA.

How that was handled with Aaron or others from WaSP who were involved in the discussion, I truly don't know. I do not engage in any ongoing work with WaSP.

You are also asking the XHTML support question, which has already been answered in earlier statements from MS with "we won't implement any XHTML until we are capable of implementing it fully and properly."

Which smells exactly as funny as I think it does, but there you have it.

Yes, I can walk away from my role. I'd rather find the balance beam, as I believe these issues have to be outed, and clearly the people outing them are not sniffing around on the gory inside. Or, they're held hostage by the complexities of job and life. You kept asking the question re XHTML, and I've been able to give you an answer that no one on the "inside" could because they are busy stepping through land mines. God forbid they should answer you now and start new fires. I can do that, or I can do that up until the point that Microsoft shuts me down and forces me out. I'm willing to take it to that end - I'm not a parent with children to feed nor does the consulting fee I receive from Microsoft even touch 1/3 of my personal income. That's a very good (albeit sometimes very unpleasant) place for a liaison to be.

I'm not saying it's the right choice for the long term, but for me, for now, I will stay in there until they force me out. I won't break an NDA, but I will work as I have in my way to try and bridge these relationships.

Thanks for the continued conversation.

32
Michael R. Bernstein - 2:20 pm January 25, 2008

Isofarro, perhaps my comment was unnecessarily polarizing. But Molly referred to it at least tangentially in her post yesterday where she came out more volubly against the silence that preceded the revelation of this 'feature'.

Unless Molly says otherwise I have no reason to believe that my comment had much of anything to do with her post beyond the reference itself, but neither do I have any reason to think I shouldn't have said what I did.

'Silence equals consent' is a handy rule-of-thumb for discussions involving an area of potential conflict of interest, for example one's employer. Another less harsh way of putting it is to say "certain people have been notable by their absence from these discussions" or something similar, but the essence is the same.

33
Michael R. Bernstein - 2:27 pm January 25, 2008

"I can do that, or I can do that up until the point that Microsoft shuts me down and forces me out. I’m willing to take it to that end[.]"

Molly, thank you for your continued efforts.

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[…] Bobbing Heads and the IE8 Meta Tag by Shelley Powers […]

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Michael - 7:22 am January 30, 2008

XHTML? Haven't you heard? That died, a dead-end detour. HTML4, going on 5.

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[…] IE 8 мета-тег (много шумихи на этой неделе) […]

Thanks to all those who have contributed to the discussion. Comments are now closed, but you can contact the author of the post directly.