February 19th, 2008

Jeffrey Zeldman writes in support of the Microsoft IE8 meta tag, which we find out is a done deal.

To understand version targeting—which we ought to try to do, since Microsoft intends to implement it and hopes at least some of us will opt in—let us examine two different sets of customers that Microsoft’s browser must satisfy.

Did we really think that A List Apart was rolling the meta tag out earlier in order to gather comments from the community? Perhaps take alternative suggestions? No, this was nothing more than Microsoft working with a few web elite to shove more IE specific nonsense down our throats.

In his newest writing on this topic, Zeldman writes that yes, the meta tag is ugly, but really, what's the harm?

Still, even if version targeting were merely the tribute Microsoft’s browser engineers had to pay their corporate overlords to retain permission to keep improving IE’s standards compliance, what would be the harm? The meta element is valid, and its use is optional. The HTTP header is easy, and leaves your markup pure.

He also hints at the "goodies" coming in IE8, which if they don't excite you overmuch it's because we've seen them before: in Firefox, in Safari, and in Opera. He further goes on to say that Microsoft is really only thinking of us with this new form of version targeting.

Today’s IE is light years more compliant than the old versions we struggled with. And Microsoft has promised to improve compliance forever. If we opt in, we can expect the same level of scripting support in IE that we get from the browsers we love. Improved, predictable standards support in all browsers. Isn’t that what we all want?

If we opt in…

Let's reframe this discussion. I have worked, hard, to get this weblog to serve up XHTML 1.1 strict pages. I have worked, hard, to master both SVG and CSS in order to style the site, as well as provide some of the functionality. I've also worked equally hard to make sure that the JavaScript isn't funky, strange, doesn't eat up more CPU or memory than necessary, and works in my target browsers. I don't claim any of my effort is perfect, only that I work hard to ensure my work is clean, accessible, and standard.

How is Microsoft rewarding me for this hard work? By forcing me to add a meta tag, or change the HTTP header. Not to use a standard meta tag that's meaningful to other browsers, or change the HTTP header in a universally standard way, no. I am asked, once again, to change my web site specifically in order to accommodate IE.

Wow! Did you feel that, too? I just felt a tug on my shoulders, like I was a puppet and someone was pulling my strings.

Zeldman also gave space at A List Apart for a Jeremy Keith, the only person who spoke out against the new IE8 meta tag whose opinion Zeldman seems to respect. Keith says all I want to say, and more.

The reasoning here is that less savvy developers shouldn’t have to worry their little heads about adding one extra line to their documents. Instead, they should be encouraged to continue to write to the quirks of one specific browser version from the market leader. That their documents will “break” in other browsers is not Microsoft’s problem. The counterpoint to this condescending worldview is that standards-aware developers are the ones best placed to add a single line of markup to their documents—though, for some unexplained reason, the instruction for up-to-date rendering (IE=edge) is strongly discouraged.

This strategy is doomed to failure. Standards-aware developers, by their very nature, will object to adding a line of unnecessary markup to their documents just to get one single browser to behave as it should by default.

Keith also asks a very pertinent question: how do we know for sure that civilization, as we know it, is doomed if the meta tag isn't used? In other words, there's been a rather breathless assumption on the part of Microsoft that releasing IE8 without this silly meta tag will break vast swatches of the web. Shouldn't we, instead, see what happens with the beta release of the browser?

I agree with Keith's suggestion of let's see what happens. If the web sites Microsoft is so concerned about are intranet sites, the companies that built the crappy site are also the type of companies that won't upgrade to a new browser version until it's been released for two years. Frankly, most are probably still using IE6, in which case what IE8 does is moot.

Another assumption by Microsoft (and Zeldman, more's the pity) is that there are vast numbers of web developers and designers who seemingly don't read the news, weblogs, design sites, Microsoft's site, and so on. They must not read because according to Zeldman and Microsoft, they won't know that Things are Different in IE8 and thus must be protected from themselves. Frankly, I find such assumptions of mass, blanket stupidity and incompetence to be insulting, as well as elitist.

True, there are "bad" sites, but less now than in the past, not the least of which because so much content is now generated from templates rather than created by hand. True, not every site meets some standard of ALA purity, but most designers and developers–and even preachers and school teachers–do the best they can, and that includes keeping up with the changes in both standards and browsers. After all, who does Zeldman think attends all of his company's A List Apart events?

If, as Keith mentions in his writing, we have a long enough beta period for IE8, this should be sufficient for designers and developers, WYSIWYG tool creators, and preachers and school teachers to implement whatever changes they need in order to remove the IE cruft. Rather than a meta tag, what we needed from Microsoft was clear communication about to expect from IE8. Instead what we've received is silence occasionally punctured by vague hints, an ACID2 test graphic, which we now know will fail unless the meta tag is present, and another example of Microsoft asking the web world to adapt to it if we want to move forward.

I am a web developer, not a designer, so perhaps my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt. However, as a web developer, I'm also filled with a sense of unease from what was not said in Zeldman's writing. We've not had any official confirmation from Microsoft that using the HTML5 DOCTYPE will turn on "standards" mode. We've also not had any confirmation from Microsoft that it will, finally, support the XHTML MIME type, and that this will also trigger "standards" mode. I wasn't holding my breath on SVG and MathML, but Microsoft has been abnormally quiet about these specifications, too.

Surely, if any action is going to "break the web", as Microsoft's mantra seems to be, it's the company's unwillingness to support standards in seeming conflict with its own proprietary Silverlight technologies that is more at risk for "breaking the web" than the use of a silly meta tag or not.

Frankly, if this discussion was only about the addition of a meta tag for versioning, I'm not sure that Zeldman's audience would be up in arms. However, it's more than just the new meta tag that's at stake: it is the very future of the web. A future no longer dominated by any browser. A future where we're free to truly explore the wondrous tools with which we can build sites, no longer held back by a company that has not acted in good faith, either in the past or, sadly, today.

After reading Zeldman's and Keith's postings, I visited the IE weblog. I looked for answers to the questions we asked: about HTML5 triggering standards mode; whether IE8 will support XHTML and SVG; will Microsoft actively participate as part of the X/HTML5 effort; what can we expect from IE8. Nothing. Not a word. Yet we're supposed to accept, on faith, that this "minor" change to our web pages will be the key to the future?

Microsoft still doesn't "get it". Evidently, neither does Zeldman.

Comments
1
Michael R. Bernstein - 1:45 pm February 19, 2008

I particularly liked this bit in Zeldman's article:

"After all, during the bad old days, companies like Microsoft and Netscape helped create ill-informed web developers, by encouraging IT folk to develop for their proprietary web “platforms.” There may even be divisions of Microsoft that still sell this snake oil, despite the company’s general embrace of web standards."

May? May? What does he think Silverlight is? They are pushing this with a fervor I haven't seen from them in a while, sneaking it into ostensibly unrelated conference proposals, and generally promoting it as the way forward.

It's obvious to me that the reason so many people are up in arms over X-UA-Compatible is a bit of knee jerk reaction to just one more goddamned thing. So? Microsoft has well and truly earned every bit of that knee-jerk reaction, and they do not get to ignore or dismiss it. Frankly, reparations are still in order, and IE7 was just a down payment.

Personally, I go farther than most folks in condemning this proposed feature entirely, not just the default behavior, because I can (dimly) sense a long-term strategy of slowing the evolution of the web as a whole.

Microsoft has long used the opposite strategy to encourage upgrading of Office: as soon as one person receives an office document from a newer version than they are running, they are forced to upgrade or get the sender to resave in the older format and resend. If the X-UA-Compatible feature worked the same way, by IE7 'encouraging' the user to upgrade to IE8 when it encounters <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" content="IE=8" /> Then the non-standardness would be the only objection, and I could probably get over it since at least my interests would be aligned with Microsoft's actions.

As it is, even the counter proposed 'edge by default' behavior seems like it could result in long-term stagnation, even as the leading edge can race along with more confidence, as many sites target specific browser versions and leave it nailed there, many users will now never have to upgrade their browsers until they upgrade their operating system or replace their computer. The resulting updrag will be huge: Imagine if we still had to support IE5 (or IE4!). The practical result is that server-side technologies will have to support an ever growing spread of browser versions in the wild. This favors the largest vendors.

Of course, Microsoft also conveniently has a new set of technologies that it can rev independently of the browser. Isn't that nice?

2
Elaine - 3:40 pm February 19, 2008

One accommodates Microsoft as one’s ancestors accommodated Imperial Rome.

Not to be totally snotty, but this one's Irish/Scottish ancestors did not do a lot of accommodating. ;)

And I'm with Michael in being flabbergasted at:

There may even be divisions of Microsoft that still sell this snake oil, despite the company’s general embrace of web standards.

WTF? Maybe (maybe!) they are embracing web standards in browserland, but not in Outlook or Word or Powerpoint or Excel (etc., etc.) — not even bringing Silverlight (gah!) into it. "One more goddamn thing" indeed. Sometimes I think I've lost YEARS of my life dealing with Word-generated HTML…I still have nightmares about the bastardized system I developed to create the class bulletin at Pierce.

Oh, and don't forget the hideousness of HTML-mail rendering in Outlook 2007.

So, yeah, not a whole lot of trust there.

I still don't know what I'm actually going to DO about it, especially since everything is so theoretical. But I know that my work's site gets 45% IE7 and 40% IE6 (12% Firefox), so it's not something that I can totally ignore. Alas.

3
Roger - 4:40 pm February 19, 2008

Our university job site STILL does not render in Firefox. Standards advocates complained bitterly when it was released for IE6. We were ignored. When IE7 came out, suddenly there was a hue and cry because it did not work in IE7. Now it does.

Still doesn't work in Firefox (and to be COMPLETELY unusable in Firefox really takes some doing…)

So yes: enterprise web developers do indeed not read blogs, journals, or even MSDN.

4
Shelley - 9:06 pm February 19, 2008

Michael, I agree with you. I think MS lost me when it uploaded IE on newer versions of the OS, but orphaned IE6 on Windows 2000. It put web developers in a horrid position. And now, guess who is doing it again.

Elaine, that was a awful line. I thought about referencing it in my post, but it was so ludicrous.

What will we do, though. As Roger mentioned, there are sites that only work in IE. Probably only in IE6. People can't turn away their customers.

Luckily, my sites are not income generating and I can follow my own inclinations. As for what I'll cover in books or tell customers, well, I hope I can avoid the topic. Because I just can't behind this latest.

My biggest concern, though, is if MS doesn't support XHTML in IE8, it will mean the company will never support this standard. Then we really will have to have that browser war, because I just won't live under Microsoft's shadow the rest of my web life.

5
Michael R. Bernstein - 12:01 am February 20, 2008

What will we do, though. As Roger mentioned, there are sites that only work in IE. Probably only in IE6. People can't turn away their customers.

Hmph. It shouldn't be hard to build sites that work and display just fine in IE7/IE8-in7-mode but still display a large banner that says Upgrade To A Better Browser with appropriate links. As I recall, a bunch of folks had their sites do something like that once upon a time

6
McD - 6:28 pm February 20, 2008

I wonder if it would help if government regulated the use of technology standards? Perhaps some do.

The most effective control of the market has always been through creating and controlling specifications, file/data formats and
the resulting (lack of) interoperability that results.

People want software to work and they rarely care why it doesn't.
Developers live with the consequences of MS'es indifference to
interoperability and the costs of developement by competitors and
independent software developers.

7
Shelley - 9:46 pm February 20, 2008

I was contemplating just that approach with my other sites, Michael.

McD, we're paying for the widespread use of IE, and the fact that people won't go out and download other browsers.

8
Michael R. Bernstein - 10:31 pm February 20, 2008

…and that brought to mind the slightly more recent browse happy campaign.

If Microsoft won't listen, then we'll just have to go ahead and make another concerted effort to take more marketshare away from them. Fortunately, this 'feature' is a double-edged sword.

9
Michael R. Bernstein - 10:51 pm February 20, 2008

One of the nice things about asynchronous communication is that you can go back and make that witty remark when it occurs to you much later:

Not to be totally snotty, but this one's Irish/Scottish ancestors did not do a lot of accommodating.

Mine neither. The Greeks and Babylonians also weren't too pleased with them.

Every major Jewish holiday can be summarized in nine words: "They tried to kill us, we won, let's eat."

10
Isofarro - 4:32 pm February 21, 2008

Shelley: "Did we really think that A List Apart was rolling the meta tag out earlier in order to gather comments from the community? Perhaps take alternative suggestions? No, this was nothing more than Microsoft working with a few web elite to shove more IE specific nonsense down our throats."

That's a very interesting point. I recollect that the reason Zeldman gave for publishing the version switching articles in January was that it was better for us to know about it now rather than when IE8 ships - which is what would have happened had his friends not convinced Microsoft otherwise.

The underlying perception is that if there was a large enough pushback, Microsoft would have time to back out. And yet, that option is now not an option at all. What else haven't we been told upfront (including IE8 breakage will mainly be about DOM implementation).

Shelley: "True, not every site meets some standard of ALA purity, but most designers and developers - and even preachers and school teachers - do the best they can, and that includes keeping up with the changes in both standards and browsers. After all, who does Zeldman think attends all of his company's A List Apart events?"

I was agreeing strongly with your post up to this particular question. I think the drive behind the question undermines the credible argument you've built so far. How many people have attended A List Apart conferences - and what fraction of people building websites does it cover? My limited understanding is that its a tiny tiny minority of people - not enough to even hope that there's a greater number of people who care enough about the underlying standard of web development.

I'm encouraged by the fact you think that there's far more people interested in web standards compliance than Zeldman or I. But I am hesitent to believe you. I'd like to believe you, but I can't. What I see out there on the web contradicts your indirect assertion. The comment from Roger above contradicts this assertion. (The assertion that standards compliance on the web is not as bad as Zeldman claims). I'm reacting more to the charge of me being "insulting, as well as elitist" for daring to call a spade is a spade.

"However, as a web developer, I'm also filled with a sense of unease from what was not said in Zeldman's writing."

I share that unease. Which is why I feel your reaffirmation of browser agnostic standards compliance is the only viable alternative to this charade.

Thanks to all those who have contributed to the discussion. Comments are now closed, but you can contact the author of the post directly.